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Zet Forward Transcripts

Episode 4: Social Media, Religion, and Feminism with Dr. Ruth Tsuria

Alan: Hello and welcome to Zet Forward, a podcast celebrating authors and other individuals who are involved with projects for the benefit of Seton Hall University and the world around us. My name is Alan Delozier and I am proud to welcome our guest for today, Doctor Ruth Tsuria.

Doctor Tsuria is an Assistant Professor of Communications within the Seton Hall University College of Communication and the Arts. Doctor Tsuria is a graduate of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem in Israel, Copenhagen University in Denmark and she earned her PhD at Texas A&M University.

Doctor Tsuria’s research investigates the intersection of digital media, religion, and feminism with the focus on developing theoretical tools to understand online discourse and integrate the relationship between technology and society, discourse and power. She has published articles in various academic outlets, such as the International Journal of Communication, the Communication Review, and Social Media and Society.

Doctor Tsuria has presented her research at numerous national and international communication, media, and religious conferences. Her research has been recognized and awarded by several institutions including the Network for New Media, Religion and Digital Cultures Digital Religion Research Award and (the) Religion and Societies Emerging Scholar Award. She is currently working on her (next) book (entitled:) Holy Women, Pious Sex, Sanctified Internet, New Media, and the Jewish Bedroom.

Please welcome Doctor Tsuria to our program and please tell us something about yourself. Where you are from originally, some more academic background, and how you became interested in your specialized fields of Communications, Feminism, and Religious Studies?

Ruth: First of all thank you so much for having me here. I am so excited to speak about my research, my book, and also your thoughts and interests.

So, I grew up in East Jerusalem in Israel and as my husband once said, Jerusalem

is like the Disneyland of religions in the entire world. So growing up religious and in a religious city, I became very interested about the ways in which religious ideas, traditions, institutions impact our society, regardless of if you're religious or not.

Like I said, I grew up as an Orthodox Jew, and I stopped being a religious person in my 20s, but I was always fascinated by the impact. Both positive and

negative, that religion has on people's lives and I kept thinking, even in a secularized world.

The impact of religion is always around us. People seek spirituality. People are still

impacted by religious ideas, and so it was very clear to me that the impact of religion in our world is worthy of research.

At the same time, when I moved to Denmark to do my Masters in Religious Studies, I started noticing this was like 2010 let's say.

I started noticing a growing trend, a disturbing growing trend of Islamophobia. And what was interesting for me was that if you would talk to people in the street or, you know, if you look at the news, it didn't really look like there's an issue. But if you started going online, you would find a lot of disagreements and maybe even hate speech online. So, I started noticing that digital media has become a space  where these religious dialogues are happening, and it became more and more fascinating to me to understand how digital media and religion intersect. And I I think about this intersection a lot, because I think we all can see today that digital media is a huge impact on our life, even before the pandemic, but definitely after the pandemic.

And I think I was just sharing this in a class I was talking about with some of our

seminaries, seminarians and they said something like, you know, the Church moves in centuries, but the digital media moves in days and it is exactly that tension between a technology that's constantly changing and religious ideologies that are

slow to change. That I think allows us to see how norms are created.

How religious concepts become part of our life and how we interact with digital media and how does that impact our relationships, our understanding of ourselves, our understanding of our Community and so forth. So, I don't know, maybe this was a bit too much of an academic approach to who I am, but hopefully it gives you a little bit of a background of why I'm interested in these things.

Alan: That's good Doctor Tsuria, and actually I asked a lot of items within that first question, so, and thank you for the (correct) pronunciation of “Jerusalem,” which I muffed on the entrance. Now, this is great to know. I've learned so much from you myself, and you touched on it a little bit and it sounds like you've really integrated your teaching expertise and your inspirational vision within the Seton Hall community. How do you find the Judaeo-Christian Studies connection based on your own experiences?

Ruth: You mean at Seton Hall, or in general?

Alan: Both would be nice. Thank you.

Ruth: So you know when I decided to study Communications, so I did my first two degrees in Religious Studies and as I said, I was just starting to understand that there’s digital media is worthy of studying. And so, I looked for those who are experts in Digital Religion. And that's what led me to Texas and to Texas A&M, where Doctor Heidi Campbell, one of the leading authors in Digital Religion and my co-author for the book that we're discussing today was teaching. So that's where I went there. Well, Texas A&M is a great university, but even though it is a State University, it is very, a very Christian place and I was not prepared for that experience and so I felt quite isolated there. In terms of, even though I wasn't a practicing Jew, you know, that it was a very Christian focused place.

Surprisingly, when I moved to Seton Hall, which is an explicit Christian, you know, Catholic University, I felt so much more welcomed and so much more celebrated in my background, my various religious or spiritual interests. You know, anything from my Jewish past to my Buddhist current interests and I just felt a real strong sense

of community and I think that's the places where you know where religious traditions regardless of if they're Jewish or Christian or Hindu, really give something very meaningful to people and that is that sense of community.

So, I do feel that that there is a relationship between, obviously, a relationship

between Judaism and Christianity, that there are some really interesting points there. I myself have done a little bit of study about interreligious dialogue online, and there's so much more to be said about that, but in general, I would say that there's a, there's a strong and healthy connection there today, which is obviously not always been the case, but that's where we are today and that's very comforting for me.

Alan: Sounds good, and I was actually at Texas A&M for two weeks and I understand what you're speaking about. It's an interesting dynamic, but most importantly, you touched upon it in the beginning of your answer on to your publication. What inspired you to become an editor and contributor to the book: Digital Religion, 2.0 Understanding Religion in a Digital Age?

Ruth: So, this for me was a very exciting opportunity. This is a second edition to the book that is the book in the area of Digital Religion. My mentor, who was my advisor during my Ph.D., Doctor Heidi Campbell, wrote the first edition of this and she has been asked by the publisher for many, many years now to create a second edition that would be more updated, would include things like social media, gaming, virtual reality, stuff like that. And so, Doctor Campbell reached out to me to be the second editor. So not only am I interested about, and I'll tell you in a second about the content of the book, but from a professional growth, this was, oh, this is the book I used as a student and now I am the editor you know making decisions about how we define Digital Religion, what content should go there, what kind of questions we should ask. So, from a professional development and like just a personal growth that was very, very exciting. So, I knew that I was going to, you know, dive into this as quickly as I was approached by Doctor Campbell to edit it together.

The book is really exciting and interesting because we try to do something that is very difficult. We try to define digital religion while at the same time providing a

deep and broad enough survey so that people can see the different elements of this phenomena. And so what we did is that we started with a few texts that were more theoretical. Texts that were defining specific themes in the field like ritual or community or authority. And then we moved into creating short case studies for each one of those themes. So, for example, under the topic of authority which we dealt with from a theoretical perspective. In the first chapter you will find two case study chapters that are shorter and they deal with things like priests on social media, right. So, it's very concrete, very easy to read the case studies and at the end of every case study, we ask the authors to create a few discussion questions and the idea was this can be really helpful to be used as a class, in a classroom setting, right? So, you have your students read this case study chapter and then you already have the discussion questions as part of that and if you want to dive deeper, then you can go back and read the theoretical chapter on authority.

Then the last few chapters that we had in the book were again going back to those broad perspectives. So, talking about theories in Digital Religion about Theology and Digital Religion and about the futures of Digital Religion.

Alan: It's wonderfully constructed and I read the Introduction in terms of how you put it out there and this is great to have the, you know, the explanation for the further perspective from your viewpoint. Actually, you have written a fine chapter as well – “Identity: #EmptyThePews: Ex-Evangelicals’ Identity on Twitter.” Do tell me a little bit about this article, or even a lot about this article and it's significance from your view.

Ruth: Sure, so I wrote the Introduction together with Doctor Campbell and then I also added my case study because we felt it was a very unique case study that can help bring up questions about identity and Digital Religion in a new and provocative way. So, this case study that I looked in, or this research that I did was on a hash tag (#) called: “Empty the Pews,” which started in 2018 I think? 2018, by an ex-evangelical blogger who was being really upset, but why was happening with Trump at that point and seeing that you know, certain leaders from economical backgrounds were stepping away from Trump's cabinet, but the religious leaders were not. So, they said, this blogger was saying, you know, if we want to stop, have xenophobic churches, we need to show our preachers. Because this was mostly within the evangelical movement that we're not going to accept that kind of speech, we're not going to accept that kind of behavior. We're going to empty the pews. So I was very interested in this because I wanted to understand how a hashtag can cause real world impacts. You know, are people actually emptying churches as a result of this hashtag, but what happened as I started researching was that you couldn't really find any data in the hashtags, in the tweets, or in other sources about it. Did this have an actual impact in the real world?  What you could see and this was so powerful is the building of a community.

Through this hashtag, so again the hashtag started around 2018 and then throughout that year and a half that I was researching it what happened was that people started using this hashtag to share their religious traumas, to share reasons why they left, to share and offer support to those who have recently left and feel kind of like without a community, and they started to emerge as an ex-evangelical community on Twitter which is active till today. So, for me this was a very interesting case in identity because the hashtag was supposed to be used for social movements, right?  But what it ended up being is a way for people to, for the first time sometimes identify as an ex-evangelical, identify as a person that has gone through some kind of religious abuse. So, you know something not unlike the “Me Too” movement, but obviously on a much smaller scale. This was an example of using a hashtag to form an identity that is then shared with others to create a community.



Alan: Well, this is great Ruth because you really get super wonderful perspective and just to backtrack a little bit in terms of research, you touched on really excellent points being this is a real contemporary type of issue that you are handling very well. Now, in terms of, you know the excitement of the librarian is seeing the finished product, but also backtracking a little bit more. What are some of the things and you may have touched on this already, some of the things that you've learned that surprised you in terms of what you learned and what you've included in your scholarship?

Ruth: For this book or in general?

Alan: I tell you what, this book and anything in general is fine too. We like to get the full picture.

Ruth: Sure. So, working on this book was really exciting because I got to read a lot of other people's research and for me, you know, almost all of the case studies are really fascinating. Some of them I kind of was familiar with because I've read or talked to these people in different contexts, but the one that was most surprising and touching was the case study called, I think it's called: “This Danger,” or “This Game Cancer,” or something like that.  don't have the chapter in front of me, so please feel free to correct me if I got it wrong. It's a very touching chapter that tells the story of a religious family whose child got sick with cancer and one of the ways that they responded to this is by actually creating a video game

where the child was, has become this sort of hero that's battling through different stages, not of cancer, but like actually like you know equivalent to or not equivalent. I'm trying to say symbolic of this disease and then they were able through the religious community to share this game and to have others feel empowered by it, or in other ways connected by it. It was very interesting for me because, you know, I'm fascinated with the idea of the way religious intersect with video games, but this was not something I thought would be brought up in this context. So, it was a very touching chapter and it asked some really good questions about the relationship between using Digital Media to connect with others dealing with sickness and death and the other elements of religion and spirituality that, you know, we don't always talk about. So, for me that would that was a really surprising and illuminating chapter.

Alan: Sounds good. Sounds like you're very thorough in your research too in terms of, you know, going about and really investigating a number of sources. What are

some of the ways, you have fundamentally, going into the methodology of it a little bit more. What are some of the ways that your research processes evolved over time? Because I know our researchers would be very interested to see how to go about it because the results are well done. So just curious how you approach it.

Ruth: Yeah, thanks. So, one of the ways that my methodologies have changed is In tune with current changes in digital and social media. So, I focus on communities and interactions that happen through digital media and so I need to constantly adapt my methodologies to the topic that I am researching. So, for example, for my current book that I'm in the final processes, or stages, of writing that is based off my long, in-depth dissertation research that then continued. It continued into research while I was here at Seton Hall, and that is focused on online communities. So, I am mostly looking at what we might even call, almost like “web one” stuff so much less social media, much more accessible, publicly accessible websites and forums. So, that type of research requires a very clear capacity to identify material to have an inclusion and exclusion categories of the texts that you're selecting and to hold and recognize at the same time. This is something I've written about and I have another piece coming out about to hold at the same time critical perspective to the text you're reading was a sense of what we call solidarity to the people you're representing. So many times in Social Science Studies

If we are doing some kind of Anthropological process we're interviewing people, we're talking to people, so there's, it’s really important to have a relationship with your participants that is based on mutual respect. However, when you do research on digital media like I do, you don't always have participants, right? Because you're reading texts that people posted sometimes a decade ago.

So, I argue that it's important to keep in mind that even though you are researching texts, these are still communities of living people that you are representing. So, you need some balance between that critical perspective and a sense of solidarity and that's what I tried to do. Even with this “Empty the Pews,” perspective, right? I really tried my best to be respectful towards the community, present it in all of its complexity, and showed the benefits of this hashtag to people, to people's identities, and then what, like and then again, my research methodology constantly has to adopt, adapt and adopt. For example, I am currently trying to write a piece on NFTS (Non-fungible tokens) and the use of NFT's and so I'm really trying to think creatively in terms of methods. Well, what sources am I using? Some of it is just case study, like reading the newspapers, or the news articles about this NFT, but some of it is thinking a bit more creatively about how do we research something that's so abstract.

Alan: It's actually interesting, it just segues nicely into my next question, and it actually cover it quite nice(ly) about public access and then respecting and constituency and leadership and all of that. And I'm just curious how, you know your work on “Empty the Pews,” and the work of large digital religion 2.0 is (has) really benefited the world at large and actually within that, what are some of the things along with your factual reporting are some of the myths you want to debunk in terms of your field and how your book approaches this particular vision?

Ruth: Sure. So, I think I'll start by trying to answer that first question about how the book benefits the community at large, and you know, for me scholarship benefits us because we are extending our knowledge. We are seeing more truths and hearing more stories and we are able to better understand our world because we have a wider view. I think especially the work of this book is helpful because I think there's too little emphasis on the place of religion in our world, and especially in the place of religion online and how much people's religious backgrounds

or spiritual aspirations impact how they interact with digital media just as much as digital media impacts how those religious institutions and individuals think. So, for me that is a really the biggest benefit of doing this kind of research that we're helping people be better informed about the realities of digital media and the realities of current religious interactions.

But, then to go to your second question. I think some myths related to my field, so for example, a lot of the times, even when I was in Texas, but definitely when I was in Denmark and I told people that I studied religion they said: “Oh, so are you going to be a preacher?” Right? Like as if you're studying religion the only thing you're gonna do with it is become a religious leader. So, the study of digital religion is not about helping, you know, religious communities use the digital media better. It can help. It sure can, but that's not the goal of the study. Like any academic study, the goal is to provide in-depth theory and data. So, I think that's the biggest myth I'd like to debunk. The other part that I can add is that it's a really interesting intersection because most people who study Digital Religion are either from Religious Studies or from Media Studies, and there are very few people like myself who are able to have their background, their degrees in

both Religious Studies and Communication. So, in that sense, I don't know if that's like a myth to debunk, but it's just a funny little piece of information about people who are studying this intersection.

Alan: And it's interesting, you say “intersection.” You know the digital highway and all the interesting perspectives. Real News versus Fake News, there's a whole gamut out there. And just speaking about, you know, really being contemporary. Digital Religion 2.0 was (originally) published in 2021, but there's a second edition out now (as you outlined) which is tremendous and shows the popularity. What are some of the feedback and various responses you had to your book so far?

Ruth: Yeah, thanks. So, like you said, the book came out last year, and so we're still kind of like starting to get feedback. I think that some of the feedback we got was that people were really excited that there's a second edition. You know, people automatically said, “great,” “I'm gonna use this in my class,” like, “you know, we really need this,” and especially on Twitter there was like a bit of a excitement around it being published and people were really excited about it. We also got to do a little book launch that was virtual because even though the pandemic was over because of our authorship and our readership is so internationally, you know, based. We wanted to do something that's virtual and that was a lot of fun. People came, we played games, we talked about the contribution of the book, and there was a big show up of people who were interested in that book launch. So, definitely, so far we've been getting positive responses and people highlighting the need for the second edition and the impact that it's already having on their classes. We're also currently applying for an NCA Book Award for this book. So, I don't know if we'll get it, but we're hoping to. Yeah, exactly to do more, more stuff with the book that will show people it's impact and it's importance.


Alan: That's wonderful news. It's great that there was a positive reception and I can see why. Now just in terms of, you know, in terms of overall perspective, this book and some of your other work. Can you tell us about, you know, the reception of, you know, past writings and how it fits into the success you've been having with this current model, the Digital 2.0?

Ruth: Sure. So, I think, you know, I, in the last eight years have really been able to grow from a graduate student who's researching this topic to, uh, really? An expert in this emerging field, and my contribution to this field of Digital Religion. As  I think you mentioned in the beginning,

is bringing in this feminist onlook, not that there aren't other scholars who have dealt with feminist issues, but I have really taken that very seriously, and in most of my work that is the focus that I bring into the conversation. So, that has been, that has enabled me to stand out in this field and I think alongside with other work that I've done, that has been collaborative, it was, you know, it was not surprising to anyone that Doctor Campbell asked me to do this because I've been working with others. I've been very collaborative in my efforts, and I've been published enough to show the impact of my work as well. As you've mentioned, some of my work has been awarded. So again, that kind of reception has been, has enabled me to take on these various leadership roles. Alongside this work, I've also been an editor in one of the journals, one of the most specific journals for our field. It's called the Journal of Religion, Digital Culture, and Media, and so again, that enabled me to read most current scholarship in this field to be in touch and in connection with other scholars within our field. So, all of these various leadership opportunities that I had, I think is what differentiated me and helped me become this, this expert that was invited to co-author this book. I also tried to bring these perspectives that I had, not just in terms of new technologies, but also in terms of a thinking that is focused on issues of DNI (Digital News Initiative). For me, feminism and issues of inclusions are synonymous. That's the goal of feminist thinking. It's not just about quote, un-quote women. It's about equal opportunities and an equal society. So, in this book, we worked really, really hard, especially if you compare it to the first edition. To have representations from all five religious traditions and some minor religious traditions like Quakers or the acts of Evangelical movements that I just mentioned. We also tried very hard to have diverse authorship, both young authors. Older and more established authors, authors from diverse locations and backgrounds and as a result, we also were able to have, you know, not as diverse as I would like, but to have scholarship that looks at digital religion from a global perspective. Not just US based and so those were some of the things that I really insisted on when we were editing the book together and that I think is where my unique perspective as a scholar helped inform this book and the rest of my scholarship as well.


Alan: Sounds good, and it's really great to have that detail in terms of how you really emerge in terms of being a leading figure in the field, and also if I may and no pressures, what are some of your forthcoming projects and would you like to discuss this or keep it as a surprise for now? (If not and either way) it’s all good.

Ruth: Thank you. No, I am happy to talk about it. I have a few ongoing projects and then future hopeful projects. So. one of the projects I'm obviously most excited about is my first manuscript, which will not be an edited book. It will be a book that I've written from the beginning to the end and it took me a long time to write it, and it is now in the final stages and I'm very, very excited about it.

It looks at negotiation of gender and sexuality in Jewish online community, and so I think it really will become sort of like the accumulated work of my various research projects over the last eight years or so. So, that's something I'm really excited about, but it's almost done. Hopefully, it'll be out next year so we can have another podcast about that. So, that's the first thing. The second thing is that while I'm continuing to do work on digital media, religion, and feminism, I've also, I'm starting to expand those definitions a little bit to look at two areas that are of interest to me. The first one is more theoretical understanding of how we approach digital media and how that impacts our society, even in terms of like, you know, our mind and our relationships to each other. So, religion might impact some of that, but I'm really trying to use religious terminologies to talk about how digital media is sacrified become sacred or profaned, and how that impacts us on a daily basis. So, that's one area. It's a bit too radical so I don't know how much people would be interested in that, but then the other side, which is much more practical is to think about ways in which digital religion can help improve people's mental health. We’re in a real moment of crisis when it comes to mental health and I think digital media has a big part to that. I think it creates anxiety and I mean, research suggests that it creates anxiety, feelings of isolation, et cetera and so as I mentioned. You know earlier in our talk, religious and spiritual traditions, one of the things that they do really well is give people a sense of meaning and belonging and so my theory and I haven't done research into this yet. So, this is really like a future project, but my theory is that there are ways in which digital religion, that is religious communication and spiritual communication online can help reduce some of that social anxiety, reduce some of that mental health stress, and so I'd like to think and research into that area, but that's all very hypothetical. I haven't started doing research on this and I'm just sharing with you like my dream.

Alan: This sounds good and really nicely to share the vision and congratulations on, in advance for the upcoming publication and you heard it here folks. She will return when that is published on our podcast, but just going a little bit more into the present and future as well in terms of what's out there. I know you have a number of wonderful students who you teach during the course of an academic year and beyond. What advice would you give a young researcher and the writer in your discipline as per your own perspective and how would you encourage them?

Ruth: Yeah, so first of all, I do have students that are interested in, you know,

academic writing and publishing and thinking about these areas of research and what I tell my students is two things. First of all, you know, don't do it for the prestige like the being an academic is hard. You got to do it only if you love it, you know. So, you have to find a topic that you feel that you're passionate about, that you're committed to and that has real importance for you and like you said for others or to the world and then more in a more practical light. I encourage them to start with conferences and because now you know we're post pandemic where we're back to having conferences and for me when I was a graduate student going to conferences is a, where I realized I love academia and b,

gave me an opportunity to hear how other people are thinking about this to interact with others and to have others hear my ideas. So, even though obviously you can, you know, you can read a lot of articles and you should going to a conference is a different experience in terms of becoming part of that academic discourse, and I think it's really where you create connections. If I didn't go to the conferences I did as a master’s student, I would probably not had the privilege of working with Doctor Campbell. So really, I think those are fundamental. Then the other advice, practical advice that I would give them is to be open to their methodology and to their research. You might not always find what you expected to find, and that's OK, that's part of the research. It happened to me multiple times when I was doing research, and I think that's actually what makes for good research where your assumptions are not dictating the research but you are able to see what really is out there and react to that, and then the last thing I would say is to have a good support network and to use that support network for collaboration. One of the best people in my life right now in terms of academia was a colleague of mine in Graduate School and we became really good friends and even though she lives overseas. We published together, you know, every other year or something like that, and that relationship has really helped me not just grow as an academic, but also feel that I have support and stability from my friends. So, I would really not those would be my few tips for a starting researcher.

Alan: That's excellent and so true, Doctor Tsuria about collaboration and encouraging individuals and the passion about what somebody wants to write about. So, those are really excellent thoughts and advice for your body of researchers at work.

Is there anything I haven’t reached upon or you want to offer. This is your forum. The final almost final question before we promote your book in terms of where to find it, which is totally, very important in terms of what we're trying to do to increase readership. So, anything else you'd like to add?

Ruth: Yeah, I I'll just say real quickly about the book itself that I think you know, if you're interested in understanding religion in the 21st century, if you're interested in understanding digital media in the 21st century, you know, I would strongly encourage you to at least read the introduction in this book. If not, you know, sort of leaf through it and see some of the topics. It's easy to read. We made sure that the language is accessible and user friendly. As we would say, you have a lot of different opportunities to engage with this book as a professor, using it for their classroom as a starting researcher, engaging in the field, or is somebody who has a lot of research experience and is just stepping their toes into a new area. So, I again, I would really encourage you to just see what this book is about and if you have any questions, you can always reach out to me or any of the other authors. One thing that is really lovely about the community of people who research digital religion is that we're all geeks like we love digital religion, and so if anybody ever has a question to somebody who's written in this book or is in one of our associations, they would be just, you know, ecstatic to get a question and talk to you about it. So, you know, as if you're a student or a starting off researcher and something is unclear to you, please, please feel free to engage with scholars in this field because they are very open and interested in your thoughts.

So I just wanted to say that and thank you so much for for having me here. I mean, like, this was a great. I mean, I just love talk. Like I said, we're geeks about this. So I just love talking about these kind of things.

Alan: And I'm in the choir too. I mean I am a total geek. That's really an excellent viewpoint because and I agree totally with you in terms of you know just in terms of the generosity of time and sharing of knowledge and it's a wonderful field academia. That’s my one editorial comment, but let's get on to the good stuff, more good stuff in terms of what you've provided us with in terms of the background and your own scholarship, which is really helpful for anyone listenting out there, but also along with Seton Hall (University) Libraries, where can we find your book in terms of purchase and other outlets to really have access to it? Any advice and guidance is appreciated.

Ruth: Well, you can find it at Seton Hall (University) Libraries and you can get it through Routledge, which is the publisher, or through Amazon, and I believe there are a few you can get it in paperback. That would be my recommendation, but I think there are a few other options out there too.

Alan: That sounds good, and I appreciate that. My (very) last question is where can we find you online for those who want to comment and share ideas with you?

Ruth: Sure. So first of all, I encourage everyone who wants to talk to me to e-mail me at: that's spelled T-S-U-R-I-A at Seton Hall. So,

“” and then also you can find me on Twitter while we're still on Twitter at: “Real Doctor Ruth,” that’s my “at” (@) so you can find me there, and if you know, “Google” me, you'll find my Seton Hall profile page and also my website. That's just: “Ruth” So, you can find me in all of those places, and I'm happy to send you the links to those two Alan, if you want to post that on the page or something like that.

Alan: Excellent and you read my mind and thank you so much for being generous with your options and time Doctor. So, this was a real privilege and pleasure to talk to you, and thanks for sharing your time and this is tremendous and we look forward to seeing you again in the future. Well, actually hearing you again in the future too.

Ruth: Yeah, great. Thank you so much. This was a pleasure.

Alan: My pleasure too. OK, this is Doctor Tsuria. We thank her again, and also this is another episode of: “Zet Forward.” Join us next time for another insightful

conversation about books that impact on the Seton Hall (University) and community at large. Thank you very much.

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